The Ravenite Transcripts PART 4: Did DiB Ever Talk Subversive To You?

John J. Gotti took control of the Gambino crime family in one of the most storied gangland coups in modern times.

 John Gotti and lawyer Bruce Cutler..
John Gotti and lawyer Bruce Cutler..



Gotti, who died on June 10, 2002, at age 61 -- was the closest the American Mafia had to a "boss of bosses" since Carlo Gambino.

"Ever hear someone say, I don't give a fck? Well, when John Gotti said that, you knew he meant it, 100 percent. He knew the life, book, chapter and verse. And he lived it completely, " a source once said about John Gotti.

"A priest even came to visit him in the prison hospital to give him penance. John politely told him, thanks, but no thanks.

"John was hardcore to the end."

See previous installment here...

DECEMBER 12, 1989
FILE NUMBER: 183A-3507
PLACE: Apartment above the Ravenite Social Club, located at 247 Mulberry Street in Little Italy, Manhattan
TIME: 7:13 P.M.
PARTICIPANTS: JOHN GOTTI, FRANK LOCASCIO


GOTTI: I did! But why did I do that for, Frankie? If I did that to you, that means you gotta make a ple—a pleasure thing out of it? (Pause—radio in background)

GOTTI: For Christsake, I love you more than I love myself, for fuckin’ Christsake! I’m worried about you going to jail. I don’t give two fucks about myself going to jail. Don’t I know they ain’t gonna rest until they put me in jail? So I fight it tooth and nail to the fuckin’ end. But at least if I know you two guys are out here, we got a shot. Somebody got a shot, Frankie. Maybe our kids gotta, my kid’s in trouble. Maybe some other jerkoff’s kid’s in trouble, they come to you. You guide them right, give them a little lecture. And maybe, we gotta think there’s some proper resemblance of a “Family.” Where else can you lead them? Don’t you see it? With this Johnny told me on the phone, forget about it. Don’t you see what I mean, Frankie? (Inaudible) the guy cried today to me on the fuckin’ phone. He’s in jail. Says to you (inaudible) he send his lawyer, his private investigator. You asked for help, I send you the help that you asked for, you listen? Did ya speak to the lawyer. (Inaudible) Yeah, he walked away. He says, “Minchia, he treated me like an equal.” Johnny told him. And he got through with it. He said he sent word to that other guy, about what they should do with the other guy. He told him, “I don’t know.” (Tap sound) Pretty fuckin’ (inaudible) but that’s selfish people. We’re not selfish, Frankie. And every time I sit down, every time you fuckin’ talk with somebody, they have another business. What business you in? Where the fuck are you going here? Where the fuck are we going here? Ya know what I mean? Where the fuck you kidding somebody, or what? (Pause) Listen, Frankie, I coulda been like other cocksuckers. Put Sammy in. Who’s gonna challenge me? Who’s gonna defy me? What are you gonna do? Take a shot, (inaudible) sleeping, like I did to the other guy? No! (Inaudible) Frank, I welcome that, Frank. I’d welcome that. I’ll kill their fuckin’ mothers, their fathers. I, but I would welcome that, Frankie. But I’m saying, I’m not going for that. They don’t belong here. You belong where you are! That’s the way I feel in my heart. He belongs where he is. What tomorrow, I didn’t give him no fuckin’ gift, bring you no gift, Frankie. I didn’t give you no gift, because you make good meatballs? You deserve to be here! But that don’t mean you gotta fuckin’ rob the “Family.”





LOCASCIO: He’s telling the truth. He belongs—

GOTTI: He does, he does belong.

LOCASCIO: He belongs there. More than anybody that I can think of.

GOTTI: He does. You’re right.

LOCASCIO: They think they only control (inaudible) whichever way—

GOTTI: But you know that, Frankie, as well as I do.

LOCASCIO: But this has been going on for two years, John.

GOTTI: I know it, Frankie—

LOCASCIO: (Inaudible)

GOTTI: —but I’m trying to say …

LOCASCIO: You said it two years ago.

GOTTI: Yeah, but I’m trying, you know what happened? Joe Arcuri came to me one day, crying. He’s a fucking pain-in-the-ass old-timer. He’s one of us. He ain’t a bad guy. He’s one of us, Frankie. He’s an old-time “captain.” They thought they were in trouble when we first took over. They so comfortable now. They, they’ve seen, people see them. They make us stronger by people seeing them. Minchia, these guys didn’t gobble up the old-timers. It’s good for those guys. He says to me, “Jesus Christ.” He says, “John. I’m there like I’m lying.” I said, “That’s my fault. Go ask Joe Arcuri.” I said, “That’s my fault. I picked on him.” It wasn’t my fault. I didn’t pick on him. He, he uncovered a guy through this Johnny G., uncovered a guy through this Bob Levy. Where, where are we going here? What are you create snakes here? Monsters? (Pause) I mean, Frankie, I don’t like you guys, I say it and I don’t say it loosely, I love you guys. But, but I gotta be honest, I gotta be me, Frank. I can’t, I can’t just fuckin’, ah, and, and if you tell me you put an extra fifty thousand in the envelope, I don’t want it. If, if you’re gonna fuckin’ break everybody’s heart, I don’t want no extra fifty thousand. Keep it. I got no big fuckin’ needs. I ain’t [got] no big mansion needs, you know what I mean? And this is fuckin’ insanity. The guy, the other guy comes, there’s three in a row. Don’t even know each other, the three lunches, Frankie, I was sick to my stomach. The last one I know better. We go by the Marlin where (inaudible) kill ourselves. They’re crazy. I meet this Buddy Leahy. The guy’s the nicest guy in the world. He’s giving that fuckin’ punk ten thousand a month. In jail with Jimmy, ah, Coonan. This kid’s gettin’ “shaken down” for like thirty thousand a month, Frankie. What the fuck? He’s gotta live. Fuckin’, I said to him, “What happened with that job down there?” He says, ah, ah, “Carbone, whatever the fuck his name, Mike Carbone called up and he hollered at me. I’m not to go, bid any jobs.” “Who the fuck are you talking to? This guy’s my partner! Who the fuck are you? You’re a legitimate hard-on, and he’s a legitimate hard-on. Youse two legitimate hard-ons. Where did you get this confidence from?” You follow what I’m trying to say, Frankie.

LOCASCIO: Confidence comes from Sam.

GOTTI: Yeah! So, where did you get this confidence from? (Pause) But you know, I even told him, “You know, Sammy, you, you see the fuckin’ trust I put you, in faith. I told the whole ‘Family.’ ” I told Joe Watts, “You see where I put (inaudible).” You tell me that you don’t want nobody to see, “Jeez, ‘boss’ to protect you, I’d rather nobody sees Bobby Sasso but me.” You think I’m fuckin’ stupid? (Pause) I mean, I mean where am I going here? “Yeah, yeah (inaudible).” I got other people I’m responsible with, too. So, the guy told me, he said, “I just, I just fired ninety of my guys.” Tell Joe Watts downstairs, if I, on my son’s grave, I told him, I said, “Well, I don’t know how you could salvage anything right now. Ya, you’re not gonna get me, my nose all—Whatever Sammy done, he done on my orders. You could ask for, for this mama (phonetic), Mamona (phonetic) cocksucker, didn’t do it on my orders. His ass I’ll fix! Sammy done it on my, I’m responsible, totally responsible (inaudible).” Joe Watts (inaudible). I says, “And you can start by ending my salary. I don’t need no salary. Whatever you gave Joe Watts for him and me, end it. We don’t want it no more. So, that’s a burden off your fuckin’ back. You’re right. Eleven months I never got you one job. I got you chased off three jobs. That job, that’s, that’s six, seven-million-dollar job. That job belongs lock, stock, and barrel! ’Cause I was with the boss, the owner, and the contractor today.”

LOCASCIO: Who wound up—

GOTTI: They did. They did. Marathon, Sammy. Sammy and this guy, Joe Madonia, whatever the fuck his name is. He says, he said, “I waited for orders for a month.” He said, “I sent word to who you’d want me to give it to!” He said, “This is what I was told.” I don’t care if I had to pick between Sammy and this Irish fuck. Sam’s with me anyway. But this Irish fuck, I never woulda got two hundred thousand from. He had me in conversation. But I don’t even care about that. But you don’t need eight jobs, he don’t get nothing. This guy’s been in the business for fuckin’ seven years. You just formed this fuckin’ company. But, ya, ya, ya, I don’t know if you follow me, Frankie. I mean, maybe I’m—

LOCASCIO: But I’m hearing it.

GOTTI: I mean this is not right here.

LOCASCIO: Of course not.

GOTTI: This—

LOCASCIO: It ain’t, ain’t right. It ain’t right. Let’s not argue. But I think you should pull him up and say this, er, this is ’89. It ain’t gonna happen in ’90 because—

GOTTI: I’m gonna do it. I, I’m telling you. Listen—

LOCASCIO: Whatever happened, happened in the past. Let’s forget about it.

GOTTI: But not only that. But there’s no past with him and I, and you and I, Frankie. We’re too close for that. We’re too close. I, I, I coulda done this a stupid way. (Inaudible) and there’s no future (inaudible). This bothers me. And you shouldn’t wanna bother me. Correct it. If I had an end coming, which is gonna hurt you there, keep my end. Do it right. Don’t you understand make people love you? Doesn’t he understand people gotta like you guys. I mean, don’t you understand that, Frankie? You’re, and don’t have to [have] people fuck you in the ass for people to like ya. Ehh, believe me, Frankie, people are scared. I like it when people (inaudible).

Don’t you realize people hate it? But you don’t believe me. So, now, now, that’s no good, because it breaks my fuckin’ heart. Breaks my fuckin’ heart. Who the fuck wants to be here? We got nothin’ but troubles. I got cases coming up. I got nothing but fuckin’ trouble. I don’t feel good. I gotta fuckin’ sit here. I gotta sit here with my closest two friends. Not even, even if I sit here with guys which are, a capodecina that’s from New Jersey, you wanna pull his cover a little bit. Ya, ya, ya, you guys are, ah, youse are supposed to be pulling my covers, I, I gotta pull his fuckin’ cover. And I tell him a million times, “Sammy, slow it down. Pull it in a fuckin’ notch. Slow it down! Pull it in a notch!

You, you, you come up with fifteen companies, for Christsake! You got rebars; you got concrete pouring; you got Italian floors now. You got construction; you got drywall; you got asbestos; you got rugs. What the fuck next?”

LOCASCIO: How the fuck did he get “Windows”?

GOTTI: Yeah, they goin’ to jail!

LOCASCIO: We got, we got the word. But I shouldn’t blame him.

GOTTI: Garbage! You told me—

LOCASCIO: (Inaudible)

GOTTI: Don’t you think I, I told him the other day, when he said to me, “Jesus, the, the garbage club, ah, if Joe Francolino gets you a hundred thousand I don’t want one hundred thousand. You take the hundred thousand. Give me the piece that you’ve got. X amount for a week for the rest of your life.”

LOCASCIO: (Inaudible)

GOTTI: “But no, I’ll give him the book.” “I don’t want it, Sammy. I want what’s right here. You’re torturing Jimmy Brown. The capodecina gotta come crying here. The fuckin’ docks guy’s gotta come crying. You got all the capodecinas coming crying.” And you know I’m not gonna side with them, Frankie, I never did, and I never will. What do you think I told Jimmy Brown, Saturday? You go down and you ask Danny Marino, word for word. I told him, “That’s my fault,” I says, “Sammy got nothin’ to do with Joe Francolino.” I said, “I told him,” but I didn’t fuckin’ tell him (inaudible). I don’t want them to not like Sammy. I don’t want them to hate the guy. “It’s my fault.” I said, “Sammy had nothing to do with it. (Inaudible)” I can’t keep going around and say it’s my fault!

LOCASCIO: The way youse told him, “Construction you take care of. Anything with construction. When it comes to the garbage, Jimmy Brown’s (inaudible).

GOTTI: But that is Jimmy Brown’s—

LOCASCIO: —Brown’s decision.”

GOTTI: Right.

LOCASCIO: Can’t be—

GOTTI: That’s right.

LOCASCIO: (Inaudible) okay.

GOTTI: And I just told him that.

LOCASCIO: The grudge (inaudible).

GOTTI: And I just told him, last night he was there, I grabbed Joe Francolino. I told Joe Francolino, “Listen, Joey, you’re a nice fella. (Coughs) You’re a ‘friend of ours.’ I made you a ‘friend of ours,’ through your cousin Eddie Lino, and that gang (inaudible) we knew good things about you, or because Sammy put a good word out for you. For no other reason. No other reason. Your cousin is a capodecina now. I’m supposed to put you with him. Johnny Gammarano’s cousin, he was a capodecina, I should put him with him. I don’t take all our money people and put them in a fuckin’ decina and leave the capodecinas naked.” That’s not the way this goes and you know that, Frankie. How would you like it if you had nephews or cousins and they put them in different fuckin’ decinas? That’s not the way this goes here! All right? So, now I told Joe Francolino, I says, “Joey, you’re making a decision? Tomorrow (inaudible) you’re making the decision, without Jimmy Brown’s knowledge, you (inaudible).” “No,” he said, “I thought you wanted it that way.” “Well, maybe I slipped and told Sammy that. Maybe I told Sammy.” You know I never told him that. I never told nobody to override Jimmy Brown. I mean where are we going here, Frankie?

LOCASCIO: Anybody would ask ya, Jimmy Brown woulda asked ya. This we don’t want.

GOTTI: Heh, but Christ almighty. Where the fuck are we going here? This is not, ah, yours for keeping. You’re gonna die someday. Even, if God forbid, hopefully, it’s when you’re ninety-five, in your sleep, a heart attack. But, like Angelo, he’s gone; you’re dead! Gonna go to jail, or some fuckin’ thing. Is this what we working for? To leave a fuckin’ mess behind?

LOCASCIO: Messes we don’t need.

GOTTI: For Christsake.

LOCASCIO: Just got over messes.

GOTTI: Minchia! And you know I tell you the fuckin’ truth, Frankie, I, I don’t believe I’m lying. And, more important, I don’t believe in that fuckin’ bulldozin’. That’s what made me hate, really, fuckin’ Paul. You, ya, you couldn’t get a fuckin’ ham sandwich. Everyone is right. He sold the borgata out for fuckin’ construction company. And that’s what we’re doing. That’s what we’re doing right now. I don’t know if you could see it, but that’s what we’re doing right now. Three, four guys will wind up with every fuckin’ thing. And the rest of the borgata looks like fuckin’ waste.

LOCASCIO: In defense, in defense (inaudible) what would happen to these businesses if he didn’t put these people? (Inaudible)

GOTTI: (Inaudible)

LOCASCIO: Would, would there be other people involved?

GOTTI: Sure!

LOCASCIO: Except for Marine I’m talkin’.

GOTTI: Sure! Sure they’d be involved, what are you talking about?

LOCASCIO: In other words, the people that he’s putting are taking away from (inaudible), from others.

GOTTI: Sure.

LOCASCIO: That ain’t right. That ain’t right! Eh, if there was nothing there, and he’s creating something, that’s different.


GOTTI: Yeah, but you’re creating under this flag, Frankie!

LOCASCIO: It’s not like (inaudible).

GOTTI: Where, where’s my piece of these companies?

LOCASCIO: Right. That’s another thing. But there’s nothing wrong in creating new.




GOTTI: Yeah, but where, er, let me tell you, Frankie, there’s creating and there’s creating. Now look, Frankie. You wanna put your head with a fuckin’ Sammy. You’re too bright for that. (Pause) Di B, did he ever talk subversive to you?

LOCASCIO: Never.

GOTTI: Never talked it to Angelo, and he never talked to “Joe Piney.” I took Sammy’s word that he talked about me behind my back. Louie, did he ever talk to any of you guys?

LOCASCIO: No.

GOTTI: I took Sammy’s word. Louie DiBono. And I sat with this guy. I saw the papers and everything. He didn’t rob nothin’. You know why he’s dying? He’s gonna die because he refused to come in when I called. He didn’t do nothing else wrong.

LOCASCIO: You have that meeting yet?

GOTTI: No. Gonna have it tomorrow.

LOCASCIO: Because at that meeting, I predict he’s gonna bring you fifty. GOTTI: But I wouldn’t take nothing.

LOCASCIO: You don’t think—

GOTTI: I wouldn’t even take it, Frankie. I’m not a goon. I’m not a grease—

LOCASCIO: He’s buying it, he’s buying lunch.

GOTTI: Never take me, bring me to lunch, Frank. Frank, if it wouldn’t be for the other guy I wouldn’t take nothing. That I shouldn’t see my kids alive. I will not take nothing. This guy can’t bring me nothing. But I should take that and more, the cocksucker! I wouldn’t take nothing from him. He’s gonna get killed because he, he disobeyed coming. And we had no bad intentions when we first sent him his fuckin’ (inaudible). But where are we going? What am I doing here, Frankie? Where are we going here? Every fuckin’ time we, we’re parking a fuckin’ company. Where’s my end of these companies? These other people wanna open companies. Gonna give me a, a sixth. Gonna give me ten thousand a fuckin’, every two weeks, a month, whatever the fuck it comes to. Where’s my fuckin’ end of these things there that my name is all over the fuckin’ lot? A fuckin’ hard-on like Johnny G. He’s one of the reasons Genie’s in jail. He’s a fuckin’ hard-on. (Pause) Go against your own cousin. Go against your own uncles. Fuck you, think you’re kidding? Love nobody. Love nobody. Who do you think you’re fuckin’ kidding? (Pause) I, and I’m not gonna get myself sick, Frankie. And he’s, he’s, he’s creating enough (inaudible) these fuckin’ situations. But one thing I ain’t gonna be is two-faced. I’m gonna call ’em like I see ’em. That I gotta do till the day I die.

LOCASCIO: What was he telling ya? (Inaudible)

GOTTI: Yeah. I was gonna, I, I, I waited, a lot of people (inaudible) see even Johnny D’Amato knew it. You know I was gonna over it tonight. Today I would bet, I don’t feel that fuckin’ good (inaudible) it looked like it had the earmarks of a nice day and to, to get all this Christmas shit out of my system, and I go—

LOCASCIO: (Inaudible) names suggested.

GOTTI: Yeah, yeah. I don’t know. Think, have a few names (inaudible) Frankie. But I don’t know if I wanna do that either, no more. I don’t know about this tokenism shit. What, what, where these, what did these guys ever do? Tomorrow they’ll ask me to make them “captains.” Ya know? What, where are we going, Frankie, here? Gotta prove whether we need them, and who deserves it. This here tokenism shit is over, Frank. I’m, I’m a (clap sound) I’m, I’m sick, Frankie, and I ain’t got no right to be sick. I ain’t got no right to be sick. I had twenty capodecinas with us Saturday. Ten or twelve were ours. Five or six from other “Families.” I, I excused myself. I told them, “I gotta go meet a girl.” I went to the hospital to see Sammy’s son. I gotta get myself double sick. I came home I got caught in that fuckin’ traffic. The next morning, triple sick, we’re at the cemetery. Then go make other guys happy, at a (inaudible). Then go to the fuckin’ wake. I, I’m not going partying. I’m not going to race, popping girls. I’m not doing nothin’ fuckin’ selfish here, know what I mean? But I’m not gonna go every fuckin’ block and hear a “beef.” And I keep telling people it’s my fault. “I told him to do that. I told the guy to do this. I told the guy to do that.” What the fuck? Am I nuts here? If I go to jail they’d be happy! “Minchia, (inaudible) we finally got rid of him.” Hah! They don’t know, they got no new cazzu! [prick]. (Pause) I wasn’t even gonna say nothing until he was here. Ya know, I wanted to have the two of youse together. But I’m, I’m getting myself sick, Frank.

LOCASCIO: Gotta get it out. You gotta get it out.



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